Political Debate in the Homeland: Hungarian Television Show Analyzes EP Hearing on Hungarian Democracy

The following are excerpts from a broadcast seen on a government-friendly television station in Hungary on February 10, 2012. “Korrektúra” (Editing Proof) provides political commentary during its regularly scheduled 30-minute slot on Echo TV. Last week, the show’s three panelists discussed the hearing held by the European Parliament on the state of civil rights and democratic values in Hungary.

ZsB: I would say that there is no need to take the whole thing seriously, but naturally one has to take it very seriously, because it matters quite a lot, and because a lot depends on it. On the other hand, the clip we just saw did not reveal the nuances: how many things were said and in what tone, by the way, about Hungary during this day of debate yesterday.

Just to mention, by way of creating good mood, a trifle: some green party, otherwise Austrian, Ulrike Lunacek for example thought it appropriate to say that at the Peace March there were very strong anti-semitic slogans and these were carried on the placards.

Now, there was no such thing. Period. And we could stop right there, but…

BLB: Because if there were any, we would have seen pictures of it, and the international press would be all over them.

ZsB: Naturally. But along comes a deranged, impetiginous, lying idiot, Ulrike Lunacek, and she tells…

BLB: and you put that quite mildly.

ZsB: I am putting it very mildly, and she tells this to the European Parliament, and it swells on, like a woman, like a cumulus cloud, and next the papers are going to write about it, and it will become a fact. While the whole thing is one rotten filthy lie, from the mouth of a rotten piece of dirt. But all the rest of them were like that … but what one can do about it?

LP: Well I always ask if its possible to sue, because…

ZsB: Yes.

LP: After all, there is such a thing as the law. We always make avowals to the rule of law. And in the European Parliament, at the European Commission, and during hearings like this, they always make references to lawfulness and the rule of law. Then I ask this: there are principles of the law going back several hundred years, according to which if somebody lies, and does so moreover before the greater public, then that’s called libel, or defamation of character, and then the courts usually act on it. Here is this Lunacek-named, Austrian-green lady, to put it in very gentle terms…

ZsB: (laughing) You put that in such forceful terms, compared to me!

LP: I am trying to stay restrained.

BLB: Was “green” the problem?

ZsB: Yes, “green” was the problem.

LP: So this woman-person. This persona. Who lies. Let’s sue her.

ZsB: There’s something to it. This woman could be sued. No, let her show us one damn photo, of a placard with an anti-semitic slogan. Just one. […]

On the Interactions between Tibor Navracsics and Neelie Kroes

BLB: Tibor Navracsics stated that the modifications [of the laws critiqued by the EC] will get neatly written up, they will be sent to the European Council, then they [the Hungarian government] will wait for the opinion of the European Council and only afterwards will they put it before [parliament] or only afterwards will they enact the modifications. Now this, even if it will go like that, and let’s suppose that they will try to comply with the various recommendations and opinions of the European Council, then here is what we have discussed before, whether this decreases or limit’s Hungary’s sovereignty or not. This means that the European Council makes Hungary write certain laws. And from this point on, Hungarian independence, Hungarian sovereignty and decision-making is no longer independent, but depends, as the case might be, on the European Council. And this is what they wanted to achieve.

ZsB: But, just to continue with this, about just who they think they are: yesterday there was this bout between Neelie Kroes and Navracsics, because Neelie Kroes desired to force something no other on the deputy prime minister of the otherwise allegedly independent Hungary than that he nod on some resolutions before even knowing what they contain.

LP: Before he could even read them.

ZsB: Of course. Neelie Kroes, in the name of democracy, sits there, this hapless idiot, and she thinks she can do this.

LPP: And she can.

ZsB: And how right you are, she can! […]

On Euro-Skepticism

ZsB: … yesterday again x number of people watched the live broadcast [of the hearing], and everybody who is an independent or who is a voter of Fidesz [the governing party in Hungary] was throwing up blood, raving with frenzy and pulling their hair out. And yet again they were confirmed in that abroad some entirely idiotic and deranged, lying and impetiginous company is harming this country. If this is what they want, they should go ahead!

LP: Yes, and what is terrible is that this only plays into the hands of the euro-skeptics. So they are saying, the euro-skeptics, that we told you so before joining that this was going to lead to trouble, that we are going to lose our sovereignty, that we are going to lose our independence, that Europe will bluster into everything. And unfortunately me, who is not an euro-skeptic not even to this day, slowly, very slowly, I do come to see that there was a lot of truth to the predictions augured by the euro-skeptics before our joining [the EU].

ZsB: And by the way more and more people voice this view more and more frequently and more and more harshly. By the way. Over there, in the West.

BLB: But then there is basis for it, so feel free to be a euro-skeptic in my opinion, Laci [LP], because now there is reason to be, now we can all see it … What is stunning for me in this debate is that no longer are the Daniel Cohn-Bendit types the only ones to be frenetic. A Commissioner stood there and spoke stupid things – in quite general terms, let’s add, I would say about 70% to 30% was the proportion of generalities as opposed to her concrete stuff. This is… this is not the EP, so we can’t say that the beastly left-liberals, instigated by those who happen to be carping right now in Hungary [are doing this]. No, one of the members of the European Union’s Commission spoke out against Hungary, or in relation to Hungary, and this is really the EU, because up until now we were able to say that it is only the EP.

ZsB: However, we should always point out, at least for ourselves, that Europe and the European Union is not one and the same thing. Europe has, after all, or at least I hope it has, some kind of an ethos. The Union has nothing, the Union has a Daniel Cohn-Bendit, and a Neelie Kroes and what’s the name of this little green? One can’t even remember this name forever. An Ulrike Lumacek [Lunacek] is what it has, this is the European Union. […]

Western Conspiracy against Orbán

BLB: Regarding the final outcome, let’s suppose we fulfill all their needs … if we make true everybody’s wishes, we modify the laws the way they would like, even after that, this will never end. For long years afterwards they are going to keep looking. There, there’s that ugly evil Viktor Orbán, that little dictator in Hungary, and what did he do again?

ZsB: I will tell when it will, when it would, end. If, just like in Greece and Italy, the IMF and Goldman Sachs could appoint a new prime minister.

BLB: Yes.

ZsB: That’s when it would end. But they can’t make that happen, because there is a two-third [majority behind the Hungarian government] here. That’s why they are raving mad, that’s  why they are having a nervous breakdown. And from here on, by the way, let’s really put this whole thing in parentheses.

The television show was broadcast on Echo TV, a Hungarian television station operated in close alliance with Magyar Hírlap, one of the main propaganda outlets of the Hungarian government. The three discussants of the show are Zsolt Bayer, a publicist of Magyar Hírlap, documentary film-maker László Pesty, and Bánk Levente Boros, a professor of political science at Corvinus University in Budapest.

Zsolt Bayer is also known as one of the main organizers of the January 21 pro-government “Peace March” (another organizer of the event was the owner of Echo TV, the station on which the program was broadcast). Bayer is a personal friend of prime minister Viktor Orbán; as one of the founding members of the party, he in fact maintains close friendships with the entire political elite of the governing party. He is also a protagonist of many scandals involving highly offensive anti-semitic and racist claims. 

László Pesty is best known for his documentary about the violent clashes between Hungarian rioters and the police in 2006. Political scientist Bánk Levente Boros is one of very few public intellectuals in Hungary who, thanks to his openly racist remarks, is equally popular with the Hungarian government’s supporters and its extreme right opposition.

Hungarian-speakers can view the television show in its original at this link.

Links for fact-checking the claims made by the panelists – English-language summaries of what took place on February 9 at the European Parliament’s hearing on the Hungarian situation:

The following link has the full recording of the hearing:  http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/europe/newsid_9693000/9693944.stm

The AP’s report: “EU Commissioner Kroes criticizes Hungarian laws as affecting democracy, media independence” – http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/eu-commissioner-kroes-criticizes-hungarian-media-laws-saying-they-promote-self-censorship/2012/02/09/gIQAgomD1Q_story.html

On the dispute that ensued between deputy prime minister Navracsics and Neelie Kroes during the hearing (which regarded not blind and immediate agreement to “some resolutions,” but whether Mr. Navracsics was telling the same thing to the committee that it told Ms. Kroes during their meeting): http://euobserver.com/9/115209

On the substance of Ms. Kroes’ concerns: her prepared remarks about why the EU Commissioner is concerned about media freedoms and civil rights in Hungary: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=SPEECH%2F12%2F80&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

Details of the mandates the European Union requires of the Hungarian government: http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/46571

Special thanks to Puszta Ranger for bringing this week’s discussions on Zsolt Bayer’s television show to the attention of the international community on his excellent blog.


Bayer’s television show became the subject of discussion in the European Parliament. Ulrike Lunacek demanded an apology, news report of which can be found here. Her letter to Echo TV can be read – in Hungarian and German – on Puszta Ranger’s blog at this link. She quoted the Contrarian Hungarian blog in her memo to her fellow MEPs:

http://thestrasbourger.eu/article/Hungarian-Journalist-Loses-It/187 .

György Schöpflin, member of the European Parliament representing Hungary’s governing party Fidesz came to Bayer’s defense:

The comments about you made by the participants can certainly be categorised as impertinent and discourteous, but that is nothing more than the cut-and-thrust of debate that those in the public sphere have to live with. You are perfectly entitled to describe them as “outrageous”, but the definition of outrageous will always be subjective.

There was only one point where you might have a claim for defamation, where the participants accused you of falsehood, viz. that you claimed that there had been anti-Semitic posters held up during the pro-government demonstration on the 21 January. If you can prove that such placards were, in fact, present, then the accusation made against you was untrue. Given your extensive sources in Hungary, I am sure that you will be able to produce this evidence in short order.

(for full text of the letter, see above link on Puszta Ranger)

To this day, we have been able to locate pictures documenting three placards with anti-semitic messages.

Bayer began his next show by an apology. “For the ugly adjectives, I make amends to representative Ulrike Lunacek, while I do maintain my opinion and statement that to bring the participants of the January 21 Peace March in any way in connection with anti-semitism was an unacceptable and vile lie.”

This entry was posted in Békemenet (Peace March), Echo TV, European Commission, European Union, Hungary, Neelie Kroes, Ulrike Lunacek, Western criticism of Hungary, Zsolt Bayer and tagged , . Bookmark the permalink.

128 Responses to Political Debate in the Homeland: Hungarian Television Show Analyzes EP Hearing on Hungarian Democracy

  1. pusztaranger says:

    Another excellent post, thanks!

  2. Pingback: Zsolt Bayer über EU-Kommissarin Neelie Kroes und EU-Grüne Lunacek: Idiotinnen, mit Krätze « Pusztaranger

  3. Paul says:

    Thank you for this insight into the mad world of Fidesz. In any normal society people like these would be on the margins, not ‘running’ the country.

  4. Rigó Jancsi says:

    “However, we should always point out, at least for ourselves, that Hungary and the Hungarian Government is not one and the same thing. Hungary has, after all, or at least I hope it has, some kind of an ethos. The Hungarian Government has nothing, the Government has a Tibor Navracsics, and a János Lázár and what’s the name of this little asshole? One can’t even remember this name forever. A Viktor Orbán is what it has, this is the Hungarian Government.”

  5. oregtitan says:

    It’s funny that on the pictures published here as evidences of antisemitistic symptoms on the pro-government rally is not to be seen neither a clear background nor paricipants of the rally.

    On the other hand may I ask the question why is the second placard — with the wolf coated in the EU flag as “Lamb’s clothing” — “antisemitistic”? It’s anti-EU of course, but the pentagrams of the EU flag on the placard are not to mistaken for the Jewish star of David. The attempt to represent it as antemitistic is per se a spectacular example of maipulating the the public opinion.


  6. N.Farkas says:

    Time for EPP to act and put pressure on FIDESZ to exclude Bayer.

  7. Balna Borju says:

    A few citations from the Wikipedia-biography of Ms Neelie Kroes, just to see who is the one we are facing with:


    • oregtitan says:

      Well done, BB! -:)

    • Yes, when you know you’ve lost the argument you resort to personal attacks!

      • Balna Borju says:

        excuse me, do you mean, Ms Kroes is an institution rather than a person ? how should I answer if someone attacks me (my country, my government) with such nonsense hypocritic accusations like she did ?

      • No, I don’t meant that. I’m just pointing out that you have already lost the argument, which is why you linked to a personal attack on Ms. Kroes.

        Yours is a hypothetical question, as Kroes did not attack you or your country. If you would like to defend your government (i.e. Orbán) then you should answer by COUNTERING THE STRONG ARGUMENT that has been put forward against him. Do NOT launch personal attacks unless you want other people to attack you personally, you stupid idiot!

      • Balna Borju says:

        Dear Sir, who called me a stupid idiot,

        By attacking my government, Ms Kroes attacked me and all my fellow citizens who voted on this government. I don’t know what you mean by ‘strong argument’, but as someone who lives in Hungary, I can see very well, that all the wannabe-strong arguments with which these “defenders of democracy” attacked on us, are simply bullcrap, which can only be believed by people, who smoothly call anyone a ‘stupid idiot’, without orientating himself first in the case, allowing some chance for being misled by his beloved leaders.

      • Your ARE a stupid idiot!

      • Rigó Jancsi says:

        By critizising the actions of the Hungarian government, nobody is attacking neither the country nor its citizens, not even the less than 50% inhabitants that voted for Fidesz. What you call attacks is the usual political intercourse in societies with free speech. The limit is reached when it becomes personal and insulting. Calling you an idiot is slightly over the limit, I would agree with you. Calling someone the names that Bayer Zsolt does is far over the limit and cannot be justified.

        Do you listen to Klub Rádió, Balna Borju? Maybe you should. Take your chance for orientating yourself, before you publish such a “bullcrap” like in your blog post. And mind you, this is not a personal attack on you, only on what you write.

      • Balna Borju says:

        sure, you pseudo-leftliberals never attack personally, not even when a comrade of yours declared in the Tilos Radio, that all christians should be killed..

        that’s why I will never listen to Klub either, they are the definitive bullcrap, opium for the (elder) people who cannot afford other drugs..

      • Balna Borju says:

        “Your ARE a stupid idiot!”

        do you happen to be a hungarian liberal, don’t you ?
        just because they can always make such assertions like this..
        everybody is a stupid idiot, who does not lick the boot of the liberal mafia
        that’s the approach in which they have been raised..
        this belief is the other thing they are strongly addicted to, besides drugs

      • I’ve posted the evidence that leads me to believe you are an idiot. It has nothing to do with politics. The evidence keeps getting stronger…

      • What you wrote is called a logical fallacy.

      • Bowen says:

        Correction to Rigo Jancsi, and Zsolt Bayer. Fidesz were not voted for by 50% of Hungarians. Nor have two-thirds of the country ever been behind Fidesz. In 2010, there was only about 49% voter turn-out due to widespread apathy with any political party. About 52% of this voted for the current ruling party, who in turn found themselves in the very fortunate position of gaining two-thirds of parliamentary seats. At best, we’re talking about 25% of the population, none of whom would have been certain about what Fidesz were intending to do, since there was no clear manifesto.

    • Balna Borju: you should feel honored if anyone reads through your post, it’s not easy. While much of it does not even merit comment, would you at the very least fact-check your information about Klubrádió’s “remaining six frequencies”? The way you make it appear that Klubrádió owns six frequencies – just because it is heard on different frequencies around the country – suggests that you really should read up on what’s going on. I’d also appreciate, just because the level of discussion on this blog presupposes being informed about basic facts, if you did that in general about any information you post here.

  8. Folks, this is beautiful.
    Austrian Press Agency: Lunacek will probably file a complaint with the Hungarian Media Authority; the Leader of the Socialists and Democrats in the European Parliament, Hannes Swoboda, required an investigation of this case by the EU Parliament in Strassburg on Monday; president of EU-Parlament Martin Schulz granted this request; as also European Commissioner Neelie Kroes was insulted, Schulz will contact Jose Manuel Barroso for similar measures to be taken for the protection of Kroes.
    Ulrike Lunacek sent a complaint to EchoTV, her letter here (German/Hungarian):

  9. dömötör says:

    srácok, minden poszt után így hátba veregetitek majd egymást?

    • oregtitan says:

      Még az is lehet, ugyanabban a szobában ülnek a monitorok előtt.

    • Rigó Jancsi says:

      Who cares about MSZP? They had their time. Are you at all capable of thinking outside of the categories orange and red? Ever got the idea that there are other colours out there? Pitiful.

      • oregtitan says:

        Yes, there are.
        First of all: blue — e.g. Attila Ara-Kovács, György Dalos, Gábor Demszky, Miklós Haraszti, Róza Hodosán, Gábor Iványi, János Kenedi, György Konrád, Ferenc Kőszeg, Bálint Magyar, Imre Mécs, Sándor Radnóti, László Rajk etc. (signatories of the letter to Viviane Reding at 08-08-2011).

  10. dömötör says:

    Akkor sok sikert nektek. Bocs, hogy nem írtam angolul.

  11. Rigó – how exactly is me calling BB an idiot ‘over the limit’? I think idiots are fine as long as they know they are idiots and don’t try to engage in debate. But BB doesn’t fit into that category. Of course, I concede there is a possibility that he is just pretending to be an idiot – perhaps he is a secret agent of the MSZP posting here as a Fidesz idiot in order to besmirch the name of all Fidesz supporters.

    Just in case you or, God forbid, BB tries to debate this issue…here is my reasoning for thinking he’s an idiot:
    “excuse me, do you mean, Ms Kroes is an institution rather than a person ?” – inability to understand basic semantics
    “how should I answer if someone attacks me (my country, my government) with such nonsense hypocritic accusations like she did ?” – inability to differentiate between self and other people
    “By attacking my government, Ms Kroes attacked me and all my fellow citizens who voted on this government” – inability to differentiate between self and other people
    “I don’t know what you mean by ‘strong argument’” – inability to understand basic semantics
    “but as someone who lives in Hungary, I can see very well, that all the wannabe-strong arguments with which these “defenders of democracy” attacked on us, are simply bullcrap” – use of logical fallacies
    ” which can only be believed by people, who smoothly call anyone a ‘stupid idiot’,” – inability to think logically

    • Balna Borju says:

      who gives a f.. damn, what you think of me or anyone ?
      If it relaxes you, go ahead, follow your spiritual leader, the liberal author and traitor Mr Kertész Ákos, who declared all the supporters of the liberal mafia (including you) to be “genetically superior”..
      it is quite natural, that someone who’s been suggested being a “genetically superior”, feels himself authorized to call anyone a “stupid idiot”

      now I stop here, because my time is more valuable than being spent on debates with supporters of common criminals

      • Quite few people are interested in my views. I hate to break it to you – you weren’t spending any time debating. I don’t even think you are capable of such an intellectually challenging activity. I don’t know Ákos Kertész – whoever he is, he is not relevant here. This time you are engaging in a straw man – bravo! You have reached the intellectual heights of a primary school kid!

  12. oregtitan says:

    Well Scotty boy?

  13. Karl Pfeifer says:

    It is always the same when extreme righwingers govern a country: Scapegoating, blaming the victim, victim-perpetrator reversal, trivialization and denial are among the most common argumentative strategies.
    Those who dare to cr iticize Orbán and his ilk are blamed to “attack Hungary and the Hungarian people”
    No wonder that Fidesz is propagating a conspiracy against Hungary. The causes for the crisis in Hungary are personalised (they repeat parrot like Gyurcsány and the 8 years) and mythogised. Traditional enemy figures are invoked as agents of “world conspiracy”: “The Jew”, “The communist”, “the capitalist”. It is a characteristic feature of Fidesz propaganda, that the notions of antisemitism, anticommunism and anticapitalism become interchangeable. One only have to look
    into Magyar Hirlap, read articles of Bayer, Biro and Bogár, to see, how this is done.

    • Eva says:

      Mr Moore , Mr Pfeifer,

      It is very entertaining to watch you debate without either one of you hazarding a mention of a debatable claim. Calling others idiots, for not putting forth an argument and THEN do exactly the same thing is just too funny. In actual fact, I suspect if you took the time to read about what Liberalism actually is, what the ideology is based on, even a cursory glance would have you realise that Orbán Viktor is by far the most authentically Liberal Democrat leader this country have ever had.
      To help you out a little here – and to make my claim at the same time – Liberalism requires a democratically elected leader to do his or her best in protecting his or her country’s interest against the interest of all other countries. As far as I can see, Orbán Viktor has done nothing other than that, so if you have a problem with his leadership, you quite clearly have a problem with the fundamental ideals of Liberal Democracy. If you want to make a point against Orbán Viktor, you are welcome to do that in a rational manner, perhaps by replying to my claim. However, if all you can offer is name-calling, then most people on this board have command of two languages to reply in kind.

  14. oregtitan says:





    • If you are referring to the post entitled Political Debate…then your links are totally IRRELEVANT.

    • On the other hand, the videos show a lot of confused people who are demonstrating against precisely those institutions (the IMF, the European Commission) that their government is now in negotiations with. So are they for or against the Hungarian government?!?

      • sarafromhungary says:

        Demonstrating for sovereignty, does not equal to demonstraing against anything.
        But if some wants to interpret demonstrating for sovereignty as being against something: debating some particular actions of particular organizations, or disagreering with them on particular matters does not mean being against those organizations, Mr Moore, does it? Especially that all concerned (the EU, the Hungarian Government, the IMF, the vast majority of Hungarian voters) agree upon the fundamental values and goals of those organizations.

      • I agree. But they were not demonstrating for sovereignty. The signs carried by the protesters made very clear that they were demonstrating against the EU, the IMF and foreign investors in Hungary.

    • You’re taking real risks in exposing the signs of the “Peace March” with these clips, Oregtitan! One of them provides a shot on them from the side of the march, another doesn’t show them at all, and two were shot in the dark. Very informative, indeed. Just a note though: there are hundreds of clips available on YouTube from the Peace March, and you can trust that readers of this blog have enough initiative to be able to find them – in fact you can take it for granted that they would be able to find ten better clips for each of the uninformative clips you have recommended to their attention.

  15. Balna Borju says:

    Some agent provocateurs were sent there with some purposedly antisemitic signs, so what ?
    We know very well the methods of the hardcore gyurcsányians, see also the hysteria around the “rope speech”, and so on..
    I see, this is a good excuse for anyone (especially the instrigator) opposing the hungarian interests to discredit the peace march. First they sow with some dumb banners, then they harvest with some dumb EU officials.

    If you deny the above, I can refer again to the already mentioned sentence from the far-liberal Tilos Radio.. If you say (based on 2 guys from 400’000) that the peace march had an antisemitic attitude, then you confirm that the entire liberal camp agrees with the assertion, that ‘all the christians should be killed’

  16. Balna Borju says:

    OK, guys, following your logic I found out, that all the liberals are antichristians and pedophiles 🙂
    for the details see:


  17. Karl Pfeifer says:

    Balna Borju
    interesting the same old tactic. When the nazis attacked Jews in 1933 in Germany and this was reported in England, the nazis argued communist provocateurs did that.
    Now you argue, the antisemitic poster was held by a provocateur. How comes that those surroundin him/her did not stop him/her.
    Is the “fecal-antisemite” Zsolt Bayer also a provocateur who is paid by the left?
    If yes, why is Victor Orbán still his good friend?

    • Balna Borju says:

      Good point, Karl, concerning the surrounding, too bad for you, that I happened to be there, so I can inform you first hand: when people noticed this poster, they told its holder (not asked, directed) to take it away immediately. And s/he took it away immediately.

      On the other hand, the few minutes before that intermezzo were enough to fulfill the purpose of the poster: the photo could be taken, the rabbiting could be started, congratulations.

      • Eva says:

        Thanks for the info, I am glad you cleared this issue up for me, but please stop using the term Liberal for those who don’t deserve the title.

      • Karl Pfeifer says:

        There was more than one antisemitic poster at the pro-Orbán march.

  18. Pat Riot says:

    Balna Borju, obviously a drunk idiot’s spoken sentence is totally comparable to a sober person’s hours long preparations for a march, then travelling to the march and participating in the march. The same state of mind, the same amount of time for thinking over and over what one intends to message publicly. Fair comparison.
    Did u recognize by the way that the person mentioned has been banned from the Radio?

    Double measure as always.

    • Balna Borju says:

      I could bring here several examples, remember the melting cow in front of the Bazilika ? Do you know, what Demszky (the liberal-henchman ex-major of Budapest) told then ? “It is not fortunate, when politics have a say in artists’ matter”
      Besides that he did not consider it unfortunate to forbid the concert of patriotic rock bands in the Petőfi hall, for three years one after the other.

  19. ein anderer leser says:

    “Second, and just as importantly, the Hungarian authorities should accept and implement any concrete recommendations that would be made by the Council of Europe.”
    So the EU Commissioner, Nelli Kroos, speaking on behalf of the EU Commission.
    The problems:
    1. The Council of Europe is not an institution of the EU. We do not know what their opinion would contain. So what is asked for is blind agreeement to a third parties unknown requests.
    2. Nelli Kroos or the Commission can only ask for complying with the Treaties. Hungary as a sovereign Member State does not have to agree with the views of the Commission. The Commission may bring the case before the Court. The decision of the Court is binding for all parties – both Hungary and the Comnmission.

  20. Karl Pfeifer says:

    ein anderer leser
    one has only to read László Bogár in Magyar Hirlap to understand, that Hungary has an alternative. According to this former state secretary, in Orbán’s first govt., former communist and police informer during communism, there is a strong alliance possible with Russia, China, Iran and India.
    So Hungary could proceed with the economic Orbán-Matolcsy course and have a situation like in Venezuela.
    Most Hungarians would not like this to happen. So Orbán can give in and accept the conditions of EU and IMF. Zsolt Bayer will then sell it as a great victory of Orbán.

  21. Karl Pfeifer says:

    ein anderer leser, you say she is acting beyond her powers. But it is a fact, that this is not the opinion of the European Commission. And with all the due respect to you ein anderer leser, your opinion is not the opinion of the European Commission.
    I just wrote about the alternative to the EU. Hungary can of course if its government and the Hungarian people so wish become an ally of those eastern countries Bogár mentioned. If Hungary wants to get a loan or a guarantee for a loan, it will have to fulfil the wishes of EU. It is despite all the govt propaganda not in the position to blackmail the EU.

    • Karl Pfeifer says:

      BBorju, we have now two contradictory statements and you are sure mine is wrong. Now I am trying to get documents on this affair. If Bogár was registered, then not because they tried to make out of him an informer, but because he informed.
      Whoever was registered by III/III was either a person under observation (I was observed and received my documents and have published them on the website of CEU) or was a person who informed. And Bogár belonged to this category. By the way Bogár was not a simple informer, he was also MSZMP member:
      Here is what Wiki is telling about Bogár:
      “Politikai pályafutása során számos párthoz csatlakozott. 1978-tól 1989-es feloszlásáig tagja volt az MSZMP-nek. 1988 szeptemberétől tagja volt az MDF-nek is (a lakiteleki alapítók egyike), s részt vett a párt gazdasági programjának kidolgozásában. Az 1990. évi országgyűlési választásokon az MDF Borsod-Abaúj-Zemplén megyei listavezetőjeként került be a parlamentbe. 1990 és 1994 között a Nemzetközi Gazdasági Kapcsolatok minisztériumának politikai államtitkára volt. Az 1994. évi országgyűlési választásokon ismét bejutott a parlamentbe. 1996-ban a Magyar Demokrata Néppárt frakciójához csatlakozott. A Fidesz hatalomra kerülésével 1998 és 2002 között a Miniszterelnöki Hivatal politikai államtitkára, az Orbán-kormány Stratégiai Elemző Központjának vezetője volt.”

  22. oregtitan says:

    Joseph Daul the leader of the Parliamentary group of the European People’s Party, wrote a letter to Commissioner Kroes, questioning her recent performance at the LIBE committee hearing. According to press reports, Daul asked if Kroes is undermining the Commission by presenting her own biased and subjective opinions and getting personal in the discussion. In the debate Kroes used “severe and baseless” allegations about the status of minorities in Hungary, Daul says. The liberal Kroes referenced a young aide of hers as a source of information on the Roma minority of Hungary, while completely ignoring the only Roma representative in the EP, Lívia Járóka. According to Daul it is completely unacceptable that Kroes questioned the words of a directly elected representative of the Roma community based on the subjective opinion of an unidentified colleague of hers.

    Daul wasn’t the only one, who was unhappy with Kroes’ performance, which was viewed as aggressive and over the top in Hungary. As some commentators have noted, Kroes demanded that Navracsics (Hungarian Justice Minister) agree to certain resolutions before they were even drafted. So before Navracsics even knew what was Kroes talking about, Kroes wanted him to agree to it. Agree now, it’s not important what to, pretty wild stuff, right? But it didn’t stop there, Kroes then absurdly claimed that Navracsics already agreed in a private meeting to follow the unknown (!) resolutions. Of course Navracsics has no authority to sign blank checks on behalf of Hungary and never had. Kroes was pretty much out of control and acted like a party politician on the fringe of the political spectrum, and not as a neutral commissioner. Kroes was also criticized for his performance in the Hungarian press, but there are recent reports of attempted intimidation of Hungarian Journalists who wrote about her and Ulrike Lunacek. Apparently the Freedom of Press is only important while the press writes good stuff about you. When they are critical then it’s ok to try to harass them like Hannes Swoboda and the gang are trying to do.


    It’s relavant, isn’t it?

    • “according to Daul it is completely unacceptable that Kroes questioned the words of a directly elected representative of the Roma community” – if Daul really wrote that then he is ignorant. Lívia Járóka is NOT a representative of the Roma community. She happens to be Roma, but that DOES NOT mean that she, in any way, speaks for all (or even some) Roma people. At most, she is representative of anyone who voted for Fidesz. But, as she wasn’t elected by a constituency, but was merely on the Fidesz list, she was, in effect, chosen by the party i.e. by Viktor Orbán. So she is a representative of the Hungarian government. Why should Kroes NOT question a representative of the government? A representative who has a clear interest in DENYING the high levels of racism in Hungary.

    • “Kroes’ performance, which was viewed as aggressive and over the top in Hungary” – who viewed it in this way? Maybe a few Fidesz supporters? Others in Hungary DID NOT view it as over the top. Her performance was viewed as TOO TIMID in some parts of Hungary.

  23. oregtitan says:

    Scotty boy, you seem to be a little bit nervous…

    • Old titty boy, you seem to be a little bit desperate…

      • oregtitan says:

        Yes, I’m really desperate.
        Because of the bald fact, that there are fellow-countrymen like you.
        Even a single one would be too much…

      • You don’t even know what country I come from!

      • Balna Borju says:

        Scott, if you are not from Hungary, it is a shame that you snoop around things that you don’t have a clue. Don’t tell me, that you do, because you read the articles in the papers about us, don’t be so naive.

      • But I DO have a clue – clearly much more than you! Judging by all the false suppositions you have about me, you really are incapable of distinguishing between facts and your own private fantasy.

        Utálok kurva rasszistákat mint maga! Az hogy nem vagyok magyar, nem az jelent hogy nincs véleményem Magyarországról. Sokkal tobbet tudok az országról mint majdem minden magyar ember.

      • Balna Borju says:

        West europeans who migrated here due to their job live more or less in a bubble.. you surely think you see our problems very well, did you know for example, that the area of Hungary does not end at Budapest’s border ? I doubt.
        I understand that people like you enjoy the benefits of the global neoliberalism, consider eg. that guy from england, who accepted the CEO position of hungarian Tesco years before, but worked earlier as a trolley boy at home.. 🙂 Nobody bites the hand that feeds him.
        One more thing, don’t call me racist anymore, ’cause after a while I got tired even from hearing my dog barking..

      • You are a typical Orbanite – you think all foreigners are exactly the same! I’ll bet you live in a small village in the middle of nowhere and haven’t even seen a foreigner for the past 10 years. You know, there is a whole world out there, beyond the borders of your little settlement – you should try it sometime.

      • So, you are called a racist a lot are you? That doesn’t surprise me…

      • Balna Borju says:


        sorry for disappointing you, the truth is I worked a lot with foreign people, Italians, Americans, Indians, Germans, Chinese, French, Algerians, Austrians, both here and abroad, to sum up quickly.. I got on with them very well, although my mandarin is far from perfect

        Believe or not, I don’t blame you for your stupidity. It is good for you, then follow it. Still I know the ones you agree with, better than you. I already went through all these stages, that you are only about to begin, and I only whisper, the awakening is bitter.. Do you know the tale about the little mouse, the rooster and the cat ?

      • It is very easy to write whatever you like about yourself – but your comments and attitude show that you have not interacted with many foreigners or travelled widely outside of Hungary.

      • Balna Borju says:

        the problem is that I interacted with one more foreigner than necessary

      • And I’ve interacted with far more Orbanites than I care to remember – almost every single one of them was ignorant and of no more than mediocre intelligence, judging by their complete lack of ability to engage in reasoned debate and construct logical arguments.

      • Balna Borju says:

        > “no more than mediocre intelligence, judging by their
        > complete lack of ability to engage in reasoned debate
        > and construct logical arguments”

        yep, you mean they called you “stupid idiot” in their second answer, and alike ?

  24. Mike says:

    This post is so funny. It seems like these people are incredibely thin skinned. Lunacek, Kroes and Swoboda, are complaining but they are yet to see a real attack in the press against them. See for example how the Greek press treats Merkel:


    These above descriptions about Kroes et. al are not so bad now are they? 🙂

    • How do you know that they have “yet to see a real attack in the press against them”? Do you monitor all of the European press?

      Do you think that the excesses of the Greek press justify bad reporting in all other EU countries? That’s what you are implying…

    • Balna Borju says:

      It is funny to see such a harsh attack against hungarian press and journalists comitted by people who whined for hungarian media freedom just a few weeks earlier 🙂

      • It is not funny – it is just that you clearly don’t understand anything about the concept of media freedom!

      • Balna Borju says:

        right, but I’m about to learn the rues of liberal media freedom: THEY are free to be bad mouthed to any degree.. and WE are free to shut up

        then again, google on words “Ákos Kertész”, and “genetically”, if you really want to know who are the racists here..

  25. Bowen says:

    There are some issues here that we all need to bear in mind.
    1) Zsolt Bayer has a reputation for making angry, anti-semitic remarks. He’s no angel. Don’t pretend that he is.
    2) This was not an intelligent, mature discussion. It’s three men trying to be clever by making rude remarks about someone they think won’t understand them. Don’t try and justify it. It’s embarrassing.
    3) This is what passes for political debate on TV in Hungary nowadays. There isn’t much alternative for the general public. This is where people get their information from.

    • oregtitan says:

      Well and what about ATV?
      Furthermore what about the period when decisive faces of ATV (and Klubrádió) — all of them are of course notoriously independent, desinterested, detached and impartial left-liberale — were employees of the public TV and radio, where people got there information from?

      • Bowen says:

        Oregtitan: if you have a mindset that simply points a finger at something else which is equally bad, then you are missing the point. Why not recognise a problem and try and solve it?

        If Klubradio, ATV, etc. are so bad, then why doesn’t Echo TV do something different and set a good example? It doesn’t. It continues in the same (or worse) style.

    • Balna Borju says:

      Zs. Bayer tells his raw opinion about everybody, including Schmitt, the president. He doesn’t care about religious belonging, but strangely the ones criticizing him seem to be extremely aware of the religion of every concerned people. In this sense their interpretaion of antisemitism is: everybody is an antisemitic, who dares to criticize someone, who happens to be a jew. Is there maybe a list of ‘untouchables’, handed to leftist media, to avoid this kind of ‘antisemitism’ ???? 🙂

      Too bad for you, that Schmitt is not a jew, otherwise you cold bring Bayer’s words about him as a proof for your theory.

      • Karl Pfeifer says:

        Balna Borju I wrote last year a commentary for Die Presse a Vienna daily owned by a company which is owned 100% by the catholic church in Austria. I also mentioned Zsolt Bayer whom you try to defend., The editors published my article unter the title they found fit to publish “The honored Fecal-Antisemite”.
        Of course not everybody is an antisemite, I do not care about who is an antisemite, I care about the fact, that Orbáns good friend can publish antisemitic texts in Magyar Hirlap and spit his antisemitic filth in Echo TV both owned by another good friend of Orbán, by Gábor Széles.
        A few years ago (Gyurcsány was the primeminister) I tookj the train from Tata to Budapest. In the same compartment a carpenter – about 60 years of age – told his neighbour about his recent work abroad and started then “I am not against the Jews, but… ” and he did not stop to tell us his opinion about “the Jews”.until we arrived in Budapest. Which was about an hour or so.
        I recommend to read Endre Ady’s prosa work. You can download it from the internet for free. One can only be sad, that articles he wrote about antiliberal, antisemitic politicians
        and journalists are still actual.

      • Bowen says:

        Balna Borju: your remark is off topic. This blog is not about Schmitt. It concerns Ulrike Lunacek (who I don’t think is Jewish) who would like an apology for insults made against her in an Echo TV program. Zsolt Bayer said that there wasn’t a single anti-semitic message in the “Peace March for Hungary”, although there did seem to be a few.

        Please don’t try and distract from the issue at hand. It doesn’t help your case one bit.

      • Balna Borju says:

        you didn’t catch the point of my commentary, read it again

  26. Karl Pfeifer says:

    Relevant is not what Mr.Daul has written or not written oregtitan, but what will be decided tomorrow by the majority in EU-parliament.
    “P. whereas the European Parliament, in its report on the situation of fundamental rights in the European Union (2009) – effective implementation after the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon (2009/2161(INI), called for “follow-up to the 2003 Communication on Article 7 of the Treaty on European Union to define a transparent and coherent way to address possible violations of human rights and make relevant use of Article 7 TEU on the basis of the new fundamental-rights architecture”;

    and her is the Link to the LIBE- vulgo Gál-Report:
    Enjoy oregtitan

  27. Karl Pfeifer says:

    EU Parliament Resolution Criticizes Hungary Constitution Changes
    February 16, 2012, 9:22 AM EST
    By Jim Brunsden

    Feb. 16 (Bloomberg) — European Union lawmakers criticized constitutional changes in Hungary including curbs to the independence of the central bank, warning that they may threaten democracy and the rule of law.

    The European Parliament, voting today in Strasbourg, France, adopted a resolution saying it had “serious” concerns about the situation in Hungary and would prepare a report on whether the nation is in breach of the region’s “common values.”

    The European Commission, the EU regulatory arm, has opened infringement proceedings against Hungary for political meddling with the judiciary, central bank and the data-protection authority. The dispute has held up negotiations on financial assistance to the country.

  28. Balna Borju says:

    all the spineless treasonous minions of my country are on your side, along with the corrupted EU bureaucrats, be proud of it, if you like..

    • Karl Pfeifer says:

      Balna Borju you have no arguments or believe that your insults qualify as arguments.
      Do you always call Hungarians who do not share your opinion traitors? Did you call Orban a traitor when he asked to condemn abroad the Gyurcsány government as totalitarian?
      As far as corruption is concerned I recommend to read the books of József Debreczeni, who documents how the Orbán family was suddenly very rich, after Orbán became prime minister in 1998.
      As any extreme leftist or rightist you believe in a neoglobalist conspiracy against Hungary. The extreme rightist – and I reckon you are one, make of course a difference between good national capital and bad foreign capital. The nazis called it schaffendes und raffendes Kapital.
      Orban who likes to play the role of a defender of Hungarians, did not receive a representative of Nokia who wanted to talk to him how to preserve the jobs of a lot of Hungarians in Komárom. I guess those people in Komárom who will lose their job will thank Orbán.

      • Balna Borju says:

        @Karl Pfeifer:

        concerning totalitarianism.. in your spare time please..

        FIRST, try to count the number of opposite demonstrators’ eyeballs shot during Gyurcsany’s era and Orban’s era

        THEN count how much blood of opposite demonstrators’ were effused on Budapest’s streets during Gyurcsany’s era and Orban’s era

        THEN understand the difference between gossips of a frustrated bootlicker (Debreceni), who tried out almost all political parties in hungary, and the fact that Gyucsány was not convicted simply because his felonies became forfeited in the meantime


        come again here with the results,

  29. EBE says:

    oregtitan says: February 14, 2012 at 11:02 AM “It’s funny that on the pictures published here as evidences of antisemitistic symptoms on the pro-government rally is not to be seen neither a clear background nor paricipants of the rally”
    For a better view: http://tinyurl.com/6opn9w5 I hope you recognize the building in the background. lol
    It is interesting to see how the hardcore supporters of Fidesz started to litter on this board wit the same style, and same typical arguments that Magyar Nemzet and Magyar Hirlap’s quality leaderships usually have. I guess Bayer teaches them well.

    • Karl Pfeifer says:

      thank you EBe for the URL. The arguments of those hardcore supporters of Fidesz remind me of the old shellac that stops at one place and repeats “neoliberalism” “neoliberalism” and “eight years eight years).

      Balna Borju, what has your story about eyes shot out (neglecting the fact that at the same time of police infringement hordes of extreme right wing criminals broke in to the bulding of Hungarian TV, looted and set fire) with the tone of Bayer to do? Nothing
      I have read the 2 last books of Debreczeni, they are well written . The fellow was an adviser of Orbán. But of course Orbán and Matolcsy are supermen, who have promised the Hungarians one million new jobs within ten years. In the meantime unemployment is going up.

      • Balna Borju says:

        I’m getting unsure, whether we are living in the same universe

        btw, you haven’t done your homework, probably because you foresaw the results, and didn’t want to blame your comrades..

        I will help you: nobody was ever hurt on a political demonstration during the so called dictatorship of Orbán, but several eyeballs were shot, and several demonstrators were beaten to unconsciousness, bleeding on the streets under comrade Gyurcsány’s cleptocracy.

        Anyway, if you can’t follow how we came here, you are free to read back on the thread..

      • Daniel says:

        debreczeni is absolutely a great guy. he is amazing. he was actually paid by the gyurcsány government for his advices and also had a show on national tv during that period.

        he is really somebody, who is objective and who knows the country, and especially the public opinion very well.

        unfortunatelly thanks to the new media law and the dictatorship in hungary you are not able to read his opinions anymore.

        (maybe my english cynisism is not as good, but i’m trying)

  30. Karl Pfeifer says:

    come down from your high horse BBorju and try if you can be reasonable.
    Yes there was a police infringement. But what you neglect to mention is the fact that a horde of criminals broke into the building of the Hungarian TV, looted and committed arson.
    By the way why don’t you accuse Gyurcsány to be also responsible of the serial murder of Roma people?
    Now another piece of news. 3 sat the TV of the German speaking countries has reported about a silly action of the Hungarian govt, distributing leaflets against the showing of a Hungarian film. Subject matter of the film the serial murder against Roma.

    • Balna Borju says:

      just to clarify: there was a complete police task force one corner away from the TV-headquarters all the time during the raid, waiting for command, and the command was: “wait and remain idle”

      The minister of interior affairs calls Gyurcsány excitedly at 3am:
      – Prime minister, I just got the report, someone fired a gun at the police headquarters
      Gyurcsány replies on a sleepy voice:
      – Oh, is it 3am already ?

      • Karl Pfeifer says:

        BBorju your motto has nothing to do with subject matter of this discussion.
        If you want to write about the police infringement, We will have to discuss about
        the serial murder in Hungary.

    • Daniel says:

      Well, I’m not so sure, since I’m not BBorju, but let me risk a wage assumption, why he is not accusing gyurcsány of the murdering of the roma people.

      so, i guess he isn’t accusing gyurcsány because for that gyurcsány is not responsible.

      But he is responsible for what happened in 2006. He allowed the police to enter the streets without any identification. He allowed the police to use excessive force against demonstrator. One of the policeman, who was shooting that day later testified that they were told to shoot at people, who were carrying the national flag of Hungary. A let you digest that for a while.

      Afterwards he rewarded the leader of the police for their actions. That he is not in jail right now is an offence to everyone, who believes in a just system, in democracy and in the very basic idea of responsibility.

      Nobody, NOBODY has been hindered in their rights to protest or beaten up by the hungarian police for outing their political opinion under a right-wing government in hungary.

      And YOU, YOU are trying to tell me… or anybody what democracy is? We hungarians know it the best. We just democratically got rid of communists, who turned on their own people with everything, they got. Fortunatelly the russian army isn’t here anymore, unlike in 1956…

      Maybe if you people would have stand up back then, more people would listen you. But you didn’t. You kept quite. And now people laugh at you. thats why these contrarianhungarians have to look to abroad for support. We hungarians already know, who they are are what they really care about. Hungary voted not just with 2/3 in favour of Fidesz. The hungarians were much wiser: they also decided that no communists or fascist shouzld have any power in Hungary.

      • Karl Pfeifer says:

        D: let me risk a wage assumption, why he is not accusing gyurcsány of the murdering of the roma people. so, i guess he isn’t accusing gyurcsány because for that gyurcsány is not responsible.
        D: But he is responsible for what happened in 2006. That he is not in jail right now is an offence to everyone, who believes in a just system, in democracy and in the very basic idea of responsibility.
        K.P.: How do you know what everyone is thinking?
        If Gyurcsány did what you state, how comes he is not charged with offending the law?
        D: Hungary voted not just with 2/3 in favour of Fidesz.
        K.P.: Fact is Fidesz achieved 53% of the votes. And that is not 2/3.
        D.: The hungarians were much wiser: they also decided that no communists or fascist shouzld have any power in Hungary.
        K.P. Really? Out of eight Hungarian ministers three have been before 1989 members of MSZMP

    • axa says:

      While a lot can be heard in Germany about serial killings of roma people and the whole country is declared guilty because of these, there is not too much in the hungarian press about THIS:


  31. Karl Pfeifer says:

    By the way BBorju, you are an ignoramus, if you speak about my “comrades”. During the Kádár period when many Fidesz-politicians and journalists have been members of MSZMP, I was expelled four times from Hungary because of my journalistic activities.

  32. Karl Pfeifer says:

    BBorju absolutely true. Do you imply that I serve a tyrant?
    You have no arguments therefore all this talk about what happened in 2006 in order not to speak about what is happening now in Hungary. You repeat parrot-like the Fidesz propaganda. Or is it Jobbik propaganda?

  33. Eva says:

    Karl Pfeifer says:
    February 18, 2012 at 6:13 AM
    Eva why not punish those who hold up antisemitic posters at this “peace” demonstration for Orbán?

    You make a good point, indeed. Those who march or protest with their face fully covered and those who incite violence at peaceful protests are the real enemies of democracy.

  34. Need Democracy says:

    The real enemies of democracy are the Communists. Unforunately the Communists are allowed into the European Parlaiment, where Communists can even vote on resolutions. And the DINO leftists (Democratic In Name Only) in Hungary are cooperating with Communists in an opposition roundtable:


    In Hungarian about the Socialist – Communist cooperation:

    This makes it clear that MSZP is willing to spit on Democracy and engage in direct cooperation with the far-left.

    Contrarian Hungarian, you should also write about this Communist – Socialist roundtable, I wonder what you think of it.

    • Karl Pfeifer says:

      So so of your “real enemies” are members of the Hungarian government, because out of 8 ministers 3 are former communists, former members of MSZMP.
      Leading Fideszpoliticians have been at the cemetery of the Heroes of the 56 revolution where the leading Hungarian antisemite István Csurka was buried. Of course the Imre Nagy Association protested against this. István Csurka was a police informer, after the suppression of the 56 revolution.
      Becoming an informant after the 56 revolution was so widespread that nobody cares. It’s like chicken pox. Did you have it? Oh, yes, it was bad, but it’s over. These moments like this funeral show why Hungarian politics are in the gutter. The alliances are not built along values. There are no values.

  35. Pingback: Neelie Kroes on Hungary: “Full compliance with fundamental rights norms should be evident to all EU Member States” | The Contrarian Hungarian

  36. Pingback: Political Discourse in Hungary (Part 3) – The Economic Theories of László Bogár | The Contrarian Hungarian

  37. axa says:

    clearly no anti-semitic posters on the peace-rally.
    not one.
    why do you lie then?

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